[goddessmomma]

Originally Posted by Ani Hi everyone, this is a good thread... so if you were caring for a woman who you knew was a strict vegetarian, would you volunteer the information about what was in the vitamin k injection? Or would you only tell if she specifically asked? I'm gonna post this question over on the grown ups site to see what they say too....

Personally Ani I would have to mention it. I know how I would feel if there was something that I felt so strongly about that I had changed my eating habits to accommodate and stopped wearing leather or consuming any animanl derived products (if vegan) and then found out that information had been witheld from me which, as in all the other choices I had made, would have made a difference in my personal choice. I do feel if we are to promote informed choice and the freedom to choose then we can not within that pick and choose what information we divulge. To make an informed choice we need all the facts not just selected snippets of what the government feels suits their needs. Just spoke to my daughter and asked her feelings. She said that she feels it only right that the information is freely given but she would have vitamin K given to her baby if there was a risk to its health. She feels that although as an adult and having been a vegetarian for a long time she does not have the right to make that decision for another. She hopes that as the child got older they would exercise their power of choice asd to whether eating meat was the right thing for them. xxxxxxxxxxxx

[ollybolly]

Goddessmomma
I have not seen the article, and was not aware of the composition of vit k is as you suggest. Can I just ask, are you sure it is not now based on a synthetic version of bovine gall bladder, and therefore ok for vege/vegan?
The administration of vit k is a world health organisation directive, and there is a really good article on their site if anyone is interested. i'm still not sure where i stand on the argument.....i think it is right that instrumental/c.section babies are routinely given it. But if we are to save one baby with an injection that has no side effects apart from trauma to mother and baby and possible local site inflamation in some circumstances, then isn't it better to give it? As i say, am still not sure, so jump on me!!
x

[Normal]

I'm pretty sure it's not synthetic as I found out whilst on community placement - reading their vit k info leaflet...

On a different note - I thought c-section babies were lowest risk - no head trauma - why are they high risk??? Just interested...

[ProteinQueen]

Originally Posted by ollybolly no side effects apart from trauma to mother and baby

No side effects that we are yet aware of, not jumping on you, only pointing out that (as Sara Wickham has suggested) possibly babies vitamin k levels are normal, and are only low compared to an adults so who knows the implications of a vitamin k "overdose". I certainly don't but I'm kinda of the mindset that this is medicalisation interfering again. Don't know enough about it but is certainly something that has interested me recently. Also, it is suggested that if a mother has a physiological 3rd stage and the cord is not clamped immediately then these babies do not need to have vitamin k at all.

[june]

Thanks GM
I love this thread...... 2 reasons
1. although I am not a vegetarian my DH is a semi-practising muslim (that's another thread in itself LOL!) but yesterday on my SCBU placement I found out that surfactant (given to Premmie babies to help stop their lungs sticking together) is made from pigs. There is a bovine equivalent. I asked DH if we needed to have one of our children given that would he object and he said no as the medical need would take priority but I'll bet there are parents out there who would like to make an informed choice on these things. I didnt know this about vit K and find it fascinating. Its a similar thing with anti D - I bet lots of women we see dont even consider that its a blood product!!
2. I didnt give ANY vit K to my youngest (and will probably not give this baby I'm expecting all being well). Basically there are differing opinions on this and the science behind giving Vit K is as you say based on the increasing medicalisation of labour. Sara Wickham has an interesting view on this. www.aims.org.uk/Journal/Vol13No2/vitk.htm
I was lucky enough to have a very informed midwife who gave me informed choices.

As to whether we should tell women about the nature of this drug - I say yes, in the same way they should know what's in formula and what Anti D is etc...
Off soap box now....

[june]

Originally Posted by smw81 No side effects that we are yet aware of, not jumping on you, only pointing out that (as Sara Wickham has suggested) possibly babies vitamin k levels are normal, and are only low compared to an adults so who knows the implications of a vitamin k "overdose". I certainly don't but I'm kinda of the mindset that this is medicalisation interfering again. Don't know enough about it but is certainly something that has interested me recently. Also, it is suggested that if a mother has a physiological 3rd stage and the cord is not clamped immediately then these babies do not need to have vitamin k at all.

Agree 100%

[ollybolly]

am maybe being naive here, but so far no ill effectrs of vitamin k overdose have been found - why is this do we think? Is it indeed possible to overdose on .1mg of a vitamin, or even less when low birthweight?

[Normal]

I think the thing is - it's too soon to say definitively there won't be any probs... Not sure if I said before - but unless indicated - I wouldn't give any future off spring of mine the vit k...

[june]

Originally Posted by ollybolly am maybe being naive here, but so far no ill effectrs of vitamin k overdose have been found - why is this do we think? Is it indeed possible to overdose on .1mg of a vitamin, or even less when low birthweight?

Its not overdose that's the issue, its the potential (emphasis on potential) link with childhood cancer. It depends entirely on whether you agree with the philosophy of prophylaxis. Going off topic I have had my children vaccinated so I cant say that I never do prophylaxis per se but vaccinations are imo socially responsible and prevention against contraction of very serious illnesses that prior to vaccination programmes were very very prevalent. The liklihood of developing HDN (haemorrhagic disease of the newborn) is very slight, although medical intervention increases this risk. So why not just give to those babies more at risk.

[goddessmomma]

Originally Posted by ollybolly Goddessmomma I have not seen the article, and was not aware of the composition of vit k is as you suggest. Can I just ask, are you sure it is not now based on a synthetic version of bovine gall bladder, and therefore ok for vege/vegan? The administration of vit k is a world health organisation directive, and there is a really good article on their site if anyone is interested. i'm still not sure where i stand on the argument.....i think it is right that instrumental/c.section babies are routinely given it. But if we are to save one baby with an injection that has no side effects apart from trauma to mother and baby and possible local site inflamation in some circumstances, then isn't it better to give it? As i say, am still not sure, so jump on me!! x

HaHa ;0) as if any of us would jump on you?? My daughter, as mentioned, is a strict vegetarian but she does not believe that she has the right to make choices for another and if it was beneficial to the baby's health then she would have it given. That said though she would still feel aggrieved if that information had been witheld. Yes I am 100% positive (gulp!) that I have read it right and that it is from the actual gall bladder of cattle and not a synthetic substitute. In the part in the article specifically about vegetarian women it says "However, if a woman declines the Konakion MM for her baby as a direct result of the information we give to her, there is now no licensed alternative to offer. This leaves midwives and doctors with a real dilemma. Without prophylaxis the baby may be put at risk of VKDB" Belinda Harvey BJM Aug 2008 (don't know how to reference but thought I'd better give her name cos don't want to get into any trouble) and it states in that little purple box where they pop the Key Points "Konakion MM (vitamin K preperation) contains animal products and the information coulod influence the decision of the vegetarian woman". It is a real interesting article and very thought provoking. xxxxxxx